Greetings,
MESSAGE TITLE: WHO IS IN CHARGE? 'a text out of context becomes a pretext' 52 in 2007 Basic Bible Truths week study:
The message for this week of February 4 to 10th is in context of the Basic Bible Truths series of 52 weeks of study ins 2007 that is a ‘hidden’ Truth of God’s Will for us because of the amount of disagreement and discussions on this topic of women call to the ministry:
It came to my attention in another board the use of God's Word to justify gender bias... I had been there, done that, I repented, God forgave me, I dusted myself and I am walking on the ministry God has called me to do...
Perhaps the reason of so much heated discussions is the ‘carnal’ mind, even born-again Christians that are still ‘babes’ unable to eat the meat of the Word of God because they are too immature to be able to learn the Word’s Basic Bible Truths to apply to their lives, so their own minds are at war, an enmity, with God’s Will and when someone ‘feels in the right’ all spiritual guidance of the Holy Spirit is disregarded.
However, once the issue must be backed up with Scriptures in order to convince others of how right the person’s own conclusion is…
It had been said that ‘a text out of context becomes a pretext’ to prove anything we want to believe and base it on the Bible. I remember an evangelist said that in a sermon, and then said I will show you how is done and is wrong… do you know that I look the way I look because is in the Bible? And that is God’s promise for me? (people began to snicker and laugh since he is kind of overweight) and then he added, look with me to Leviticus
The priest shall burn them on the altar as food, offered by fire, for a sweet and satisfying fragrance. All the fat is the Lord's. He paused until most everybody stopped laughing, then he look at the audience and said: I told you that I could find one scripture out of context to blame God for how my body looks!
Therefore, all that is to tell you about a message that I found at a board a few days ago that reminded me of that, and of the danger of using the Word of God as a pretext for our own human religious reasoning and conclusions…
So, here is the message and the follow up, you reach your own conclusion on this matter!
THE MESSAGE THAT STARTED THIS DISCUSSION: WHOSE IN CHARGE?
Posted by xxxxxx on
BUT WHAT I FOUND IN THE MESSAGE WITHOUT A MESSAGE, JUST A LINK with a message proving that God does not want women to be pastors and ministers, is called:
SHORT, AND TO THE POINT! Bible-Based Commentary WHOSE IN CHARGE?
And uses Isaiah
… I read the message and realized is using the Word of God to say that some New Testament believers are NOT under God’s calling to minister …
If that single scripture is true for us today to discriminate against women called by God to minister, then why the Bible says in Galatians 3:28: There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (AMPL)
After prayerful consideration I posted my first response to this message:
Posted by xxx on
Hi,
today I opened this post that has no message only a link to an internet website... when I clicked at the site given what I read there seems that is about women in ministry not been God's Will for us today and against denominations and ministries that allow women to serve as ministers...
I am confused!... is this group here at xxxxxxxxxxx for or against women calling to ministry? Thank you for having some explanation to this post that seems to be against what xxxxxxxxx is all about.
Thank you! Enclosed link to: ZOE - God's kind of life: http://www.urlsnip.com/264589
Then a response to my reply was posted:
The scriptures in context, focus on the subject of headship of the man in the family and household. The verses quoted are from the bible, and they mean exactly what they say.
Nothing in my message says women are unfit for ministry, as God calls ALL BELIEVERS to minister in some capacity as members of the Body of Christ. By default, a minister is NOT a position of authority in a church. (unless they also hold a position of leadership in the church)
Personally, I believe the bible teaches us women should not have AUTHORITY over men. This would mean a woman could be a minister, but not the pastor of a church. (as I read and understand the scriptures) Read the bible, and determine this for yourself.
But again, my post was focused on leadership in the family and household unit...
To which I responded with this message:
Posted by xxx on
Thank you for prompt reply! : )
The married woman and a woman (married or single) in ministry are two different things and when we mix them up we get a toxic brew... as a woman I had gone through these same reasonings on this matter...I thank God that I found and I have read books that show light on this situation:
* 25 Tough Questions about Women and the Church by J. Lee Grady (Charisma House)
* 10 Lies the Church Tells Women by J. Lee Grady (Charisma House)
* a woman's search for worth by Dr. Deborah Newman (Tyndale)
* Lies Women Believe by Nancy Leigh DeMoss (MOODY)
Praying that the Lord's Will prevails in every Christian to have a clear understanding of His Will for each one of us and that we do not waste time and energy over these areas and concentrate in witnessing God's salvation to a lost world going to hell on a wide highway!
Peace!
My Link to: ABOUT YOU: http://www.smallerurl.com/?id=hxq88qd
Thank you pastor xxxx for your comments...
Here is my final post to this topic:
Greetings,
I had visited this board twice so it is a record time to be in ‘hot water’ over difference of beliefs in the New Testament calling to ministry due to gender... in this instance on women in leadership... it could seems that God is capricious or changes His mind about this issue that divide Christians, if women are not to be leaders of His people why then God appointed women in leadership roles in the Old Testament and Jesus ministry to women in a daily basis as recorded in the Gospels?, Paul recognizing women as leaders in the early churches?
I know that God is not the author of the confusion, so it must be us!
I will not waste time in a debate over this issue, everyone needs to be convinced in their own minds... I know that no one will change their minds once they are made up on any subject when they base their reasoning and decisions on Bible scriptures without comparing that one or more to the whole counsel of God.
So here is something to think about in this and many other areas of disagreements among Christian. So, let us examine the Word of God regarding every Christian own walk of faith in personal salvation through confession that Jesus is our Lord and Savior.
A few Scriptures to use as yardstick in matters where everyone is not ‘in the same page’ are found in Philippians 2:12; Philippians 4:7 and Matthew 9:29 -quotes are from the AMPL version with permission as required by Copyright Laws:
Philippians 2:12
Therefore, my dear ones, as you have always obeyed [my suggestions], so now, not only [with the enthusiasm you would show] in my presence but much more because I am absent, work out (cultivate, carry out to the goal, and fully complete) your own salvation with reverence and awe and trembling (self-distrust, with serious caution, tenderness of conscience, watchfulness against temptation, timidly shrinking from whatever might offend God and discredit the name of Christ).
Matthew 9:29 {Jesus spoke and said to them} …according to your faith and trust and reliance [on the power invested in Me] be it done to you;
In regard to women in Leadership positions let's see God’s Will in the Old Testament - God appointed women to leadership over men like Deborah and by default of Barak lack confidence in her leadership and refusal to go into battle alone, God then also used a woman: Yael, the clan leader's wife - to defeat the enemy:
Judges 4:8-10[NIV]8 Barak said to her, "If you go with me, I will go; but if you don't go with me, I won't go"9 "Very well," Deborah said, "I will go with you. But because of the way you are going about this, the honor will not be yours, for the LORD will hand Sisera over to a woman." So Deborah went with Barak to Kedesh, 10 where he summoned Zebulun and Naphtali. Ten thousand men followed him, and Deborah also went with him.
Read account from Judges 4 online: http://www.amit.org.il/learning/english/JW/Deborah.htmhttp://www.cameronlaw.com/study/139.php And in the New Testament we have many accounts of Jesus and women telling everyone (includes men) about what He had done or said like the woman at the well, the Samaritan woman in John 4… and how she went to tell others about Jesus been the Messiah, the Savior: John 4: 4- 43: 28 - Then the woman left her water jar and went away to the town. And she began telling the people, 29 Come, see a Man Who has told me everything that I ever did! Can this be [is not this] the Christ? [Must not this be the Messiah, the Anointed One?] … through her ‘evangelism’ the town went to see Jesus, believed and asked Him to stay with them (Jesus did and stayed there 2 days) and when many were saved by Jesus talking to them, they said to the woman in verse 42: “ And they told the woman, Now we no longer believe (trust, have faith) just because of what you said; for we have heard Him ourselves [personally], and we know that He truly is the Savior of the world, the Christ. Luke 24:10 Now it was Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James, and the other women with them, who reported these things to the apostles. John 20:17-19 17 Jesus said to her, Do not cling to Me [do not hold Me], for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to My brethren and tell them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God. 18 Away came Mary Magdalene, bringing the disciples news (word) that she had seen the Lord and that He had said these things to her. 19 Then on that same first day of the week, when it was evening, though the disciples were behind closed doors for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, Peace to you! So, I say to the women ordained by Rev. xxxxxxxxx, Ph.D. Senior Pastor and ordaining leader at this xxxxxxxxxxx Fellowship the quote of Admiral David Glasgow Farragut (1801-1870) : “*** the torpedoes, full speed ahead!” Here is a site with information on women in ministry: God's blessings! * Praise the Lord! * To God be the glory! * Jesus is Lord! Also I received personal emails of those reading messages and their responses: ----- Original Message ----- To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Fear Not sister!! Date: Thu, May the Peace of Christ be upon you sister, DO NOT let that example of verse slinging enrage you. The person who submitted that link was in my unsolicited opinion being most irresponsible. That is not the view or the opinion of everyone on that board and I want you to know you can find a friend in me. I believe that if God chose the Virgin Mary as a Holy enough vessel for the Son of God, that woman (and women!) is also capable of ministering to mankind. After all, did not Mary minister to all of us when she gave birth to our savior? God could have simply made Christ materialize as a grown man but HE chose to use Woman for such a vital purpose. When he did so it was the BEGINNING of woman's role in the church, not the end. I can promise you that this person either did not think about what they were writing, didn't pray about it, or at the very least simple opposes my views on this matter. Please understand again that this person does NOT speak for all of us!! God bless and keep you sister, and pray for this person that the Holy Spirit will descend upon them and fill them with wisdom. your friend, xxxx - - - - To: xxxxxxxxxxx One more thing good sister, On the web site, he has listed the verses he CHOSE to argue his point. Each verse from the New Testament ends on his web site with a semi-colon, which means that there is more to follow... Look up the verses and read further and you'll see more clarification of the statements he has clearly taken out of context. This is precisely the type of irresponsible verse slinging that leads to men in wife beaters, holding a beer and ordering their wives to get out of the way of the TV. (and much, much worse...) Now, I have chosen not to post on the topic in the forum because I am dangerously close to getting banned already so I don't wish to be viewed as rabble rousing. ;-) but know in your heart that there are always going to be Men out there that are threatened by women leaders, and I expect this man's posting and the recent announcement of Hilary Clinton's intentions to run for President are not mere coincidence. While I am not a member of the Hilary fan club, I see nothing wrong with a Woman President, after all it has been the leadership of MEN that has dragged this country down as far as it is now! ;-) Goodnight and God Bless sister! your friend, xxxxxxxxxx - - - - God Bless you sister, Forgive the tardiness of this reply as I was headed to work right after I sent my e-mail earlier. I am sorry that Women have to work so hard in this age, to defend themselves against fellow Christians. This is EXACTLY why Paul warned against denominations in his letter to the Corinthians. You are 100% correct about women in leadership roles. Christ relied upon Women so very much, and it was women who first saw him resurrected and believed. Remember the Disciples didn't believe at first, but the women did. How often is it that it's the Wife who leads the family to Christianity in the home, while the man stays home pouting over a football game, and the Mother gathers the children and takes them off to Sunday service? Shamefully too often. Is a Woman expected to be subservient to that?! Of course not. Let us not forget that also in the sacrament of marriage, Woman and Man cease to exist as individuals but are joined together as one. Would a man go around all day long telling himself to do things? Of course not, even by today's standards he'd be considered a lunatic. In our home, My wife is me, and I am her. Our children know that we are a united front, should they come to me with anything, mom will know of it, and vice-versa. No decisions are made but that aren't in concert between my wife and I. If we do not reach a unanimous decision, the answer is usually "no". Perhaps that's why we have been married for 19 years. Or, perhaps as this man put it, I give way to make the peace in my home. Well, did not Christ himself say, blessed are the peacemakers? ;-) Please do not let this person get you down. you have my continued prayers &friendship! yours in Christ, here is personal number- call anytime, my wife is the best in the world, she's great to talk to too! ;-) = = = = Also there are others with their replies too: Posted by Rev. xxxxxxxxx on AMEN; on the full speed ahead,,, The church I fellowship at here has a woman pastor, my mom is ordained by brother Dave as well as my wife. Link: XXX XXX XXXXX - - - Posted by Pastor xxxxxxxxxxx on I believe we must also remember the society trends in the time that these verses were put to pen, at that time women were not considered equal, today they are, and I for one have found some women who are much more called and fit for the pastorate then some men. The Bible tells us " So God created humankind, in His image, in the image of God he created them male and female He created them." (Gen.1:27) (NRSV) Sounds pretty equal to me. Blessings. Pastor xxxxxxxx - - - - - Posted by Rev.xxxxxxx on Amen, Pastor xxxxxxx, We need to keep in mind the context in terms of the culture at the time the Scriptures were written. What does one's gender have to do with one's calling in the eyes of God? As Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 13, we are looking into a mirror dimly lit in this lifetime, and will only see clearly in the next life when we are with God. God bless, Rev. xxxx Finally God’s Word that could apply this topic can be found by reading Jesus words in Matthew 5, we call this THE BEATITUDES, here is a link to that chapter: Also James 3:17-18: God’s Wisdom is available to each Christian producing peace which means concord, agreement, and harmony between individuals, with undisturbedness, in a peaceful mind free from fears and agitating passions and moral conflicts]. And 1 Corinthians 13: (Without God’s kind of love nothing we do as Christians is of any good): http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Cor.%2013;&version=45; My prayers that everyone reading and meditating on this message can live and minister as the Apostle Paul did and wrote about in 2 Cor. 2:14-17: God’s blessings! .. .. .. .. REMINDER TO EVERYONE READING THIS BIBLE STUDY SERIES: “Thank you” for your commitment to pray for CELEBRATE JESUS! MINISTRIES for "1 minute every day" at anytime convenient to you, not necessarily during your own personal prayer time or personal devotions. "For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans to prosper you & not to harm you, plans to give you hope & a future." - Jer. 29:11 "In this new life one's nationality or race or education or social position is unimportant; such things mean nothing. Whether a person has Christ is what matters, & He is equally available to all" - Col.3:11 "The key to godliness is not more knowledge of God but more obedience to Him" - Rom.6:16 Everyone is invited to visit these websites that are our Christian outreach to * prayerfully reach souls in the internet one 'CLICK' at a time [TM] * Celebrate Jesus - God's gift of eternal life= http://compacturl.com/jrpg Jesus is God's only way for salvation= http://compacturl.com/gmsh ABOUT YOU= http://smallerurl.com/?id=hxq88qd Sisters in Christ/Woman to Woman Christian Witness= http://compacturl.com/zfno
http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_4191_women_ministry.cfm
Subject: Re: my final message on the subject of women as leaders in the church...
Date: Thu,
Subject: Re: my final message on the subject of women as leaders in the church...
Date: Thu,
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&version=45&context=chapter
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%203:17-18;&version=45;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Cor.%202:14-17;&version=45;
{2 Cor. 2:14-17} : )
ZOE: God's kind of life=http://urlsnip.com/264589
Help for parent/youth leaders protect children= http://compacturl.com/whsv
Celebrate
Yahoo group - Celebrate Jesus 2-Fold Outreach= http://compacturl.com/iteg
Minister Gospel 2 - Christian Minister 2 - Grateful Christian messages Blog= http://compacturl.com/vmgf
CANADA Yahoo group - Jesus saves, follow Him= http://compacturl.com/sdqx
God's Word on Love and Marriage= http://compacturl.com/jdhr
God's Word on Homosexuality= http://compacturl.com/ovgq
Yahoo group - Jesus Saves - Follow Him 2= http://compacturl.com/vfjc
Mawy Art Studio Homepage= http://compacturl.com/fcyh
My Tribute to Heroes and Survivors of
One Solitary Life is Jesus= http://compacturl.com/dajs
NEW: SPANISH CHRISTIAN WITNESS WEBSITES:
Hermanas en Cristo/De Mujer a Mujer Testimonio Cristiano:
http://compacturl.com/xdqq
Celebremos a Jesus – el Regalo de Dios para Vida Eterna:
http://compacturl.com/nicn
* The devil is defeated and a liar.
PRAISE THE LORD! TO GOD BE THE GLORY! JESUS IS LORD!
(c) 2007 - CELEBRATE JESUS! MINISTRIES.
.....................................................................................................
No comments:
Post a Comment